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Physics doesnt lie – a 9-11 rebuttal

September 15, 2011

This blog post was originally posted as a comment on the following blog post by Craig McKee: http://truthandshadows.wordpress.com/2010/11/26/tilting-south-tower-gives-away-demolition-of-trade-center-towers/. The last time I checked, the post had still not been approved and was languishing in virtual blog purgatory. Since the tenth anniversary of 9-11 has recently passed I figured now would be as good a time as any to post up my response to Craig’s nonsense as a posting of my own.

This post that follows is not exactly the same as the reply originally made to Craig, there are a few minor edits and some additional text, the general meaning and conclusion is of course the same.

——

Craig opens up his item with a list of moments from that now infamous September day in 2001 and claims that each of them is impossible as described by the official account. Apparently physics doesn’t lie, or more accurately, to quote a famous interstellar Scotsman, “You cannae break the laws of physics”. Wording aside, Craig’s meaning is right, the laws of physics are set and everything that we mere humans attempt to do must obey those laws.

Craig’s item goes on to explain why, in his view, the laws of physics mean that WTC1 could not have collapsed in the way it did. Craig’s understanding of these laws of physics leave him with the conclusion that only planted explosives could have brought down the South Tower in that manner.

Craig invokes Sir Isaac Newton and the law of the conservation of momentum in his bid to make his point. However, he fails to explain what that law is and why he thinks it applies. Its almost as though he’s taken the idea from somewhere else and not made the effort to actually understand it.

This site (http://physics.about.com/od/physics101thebasics/p/PhysicsLaws.htm) describes this law as “The total momentum in a closed or isolated system remains constant. An alternative of this is the law of conservation of angular momentum”. The key phrase here is “in a closed or isolated system”. Make a note of this as it will be returned to later.

What that law means is that once the top of the South Tower had started tipping, it could not have stopped unless an external force acted on it to stop that tip. Craig would have readers believe that the top should have fallen over the edge. His conclusion is that the only possible explanation for an external force is explosives. The practical problems of the timing of these explosives, how and when they were placed and yet never discovered and why they were not upset by the close proximity of fire for close to an hour will be left to the reader’s imagination.

Craig goes on to state that the top of the South Tower tilted at 23 degrees, no source is given for this number.

Google searches for the South Tower tilt bring up several hits:

Certainly 40 degree seems too high and 8 degrees seems too low. What wasn’t clear on any of the pages found was how the claimed numbers were derived.

Given that the aircraft impact on the South Tower was at the south east corner of the building and that’s where the first visible movement in the collapse originated; it is certainly reasonable that the tilt was on two angles rather than just one.

As the corner dips the whole of the upper section tilts to the south east. Craig never mentions that the tilt originates at this corner, instead invoking Newton again and claiming that the long dead scientist would not be impressed with how the building collapsed. Disappointingly, Craig makes no effort to explain why that would be true; instead he relies on readers to believe he is right, except he isn’t.

 

What about the gravity?

What has not yet been mentioned is the fact that gravity was acting on those top floors from the moment they were constructed. Before the moment of impact, those floors were being held up by the intact structure of the building, essentially overcoming the force of gravity. Almost one hour after the impact, the remaining, weakened steel supports gave in and the collapse started. From that moment on, gravity would pull everything downwards, the only direction in which it will act on an object; down means through the rest of the building below.

But what about that tilt?

Craig would have everyone believe that the tilting top floors should have gone over the edge and fallen on the streets below. Remember the conservation of momentum description from above? The angular momentum of the top could not have stopped unless there was another force was acting it. That other force is gravity.

The top floors of the South Tower were not stationary in space when they were tilting; at the same time that they were tilting, they were also falling. The tilt started because the south east corner (the corner that took the plane impact) weakened to the point of failure first and dipped. That area of failure means the supports in that section of building were no longer capable of holding up their share of the weight above. This share gets distributed to the neighbouring supports, which in turn brings them past their capable limit so they too fail. The result is a very rapid, progressive failure of all supports as the weight of the top floors gets supported by fewer and fewer columns. All this happens within the time it takes the top section to make that dramatic tilt.

Another key point to note here is that the structural integrity of the supporting steel only works when that steel is vertical. Once the tilt has started and that steel is bent and no longer vertical, any structural integrity that remains is lost and so the supports that were holding up part of the top section can no longer do so. Once the tilt starts there is nothing holding up any of the top section.

The failure of all the supports effectively means that the top floors are unsupported dead weight sitting on floor sections that are incapable of supporting this weight. The pancake collapse has started and gravity has full grip of everything and its coming straight down. There is now no reason at all for a tilt. The declaration by Craig, and other truth deniers, that the top should have toppled over relies on the assumption that the structure below is capable of supporting that top section. The simple fact is, that support no longer exists and so a topple over won’t happen because gravity is going to pull it straight down through the building.

This image (taken from a truth denier website) shows the violence going on between the supported and unsupported sections of the building; http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/proofs/docs/st_mont.jpg. What is shown in the sequence of four images is that the tilt increases in each frame. At the same time the tilted section is also falling downwards and being broken up. Note how it did not ‘blow apart’, as Craig put its, rather it breaks up as it impacts against the building below, each section of building conspires to destroy the other as they crash together.

The original page for the image linked above (http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/proofs/rotation.html) claims the angle of tilt does not change between images two and three. The images are small and low quality but using a straight edge to check there is actually a change in angle between images two and three. Its not as much as the change between one and two so the law of angular momentum implies that there is another force acting on the top section. Take another look at the images and check the size of that top section; notice how it is smaller in each frame. That is the result of gravity pulling the top floors down into the still standing lower building and destroying them both in the process. The mass of tilted top section gets less and less. This changes the mass of the top section and its centre of gravity and essentially acts as the external force and explains why the law of conservation of angular momentum does not apply in the way that Craig wishes.

If Craig is to invoke a law of physics that requires a closed or isolated system to work then he really needs to ensure that he is using it to describe a closed or isolated system. The tilting top floors of the South Tower do not constitute such a closed or isolated system due to the fact that those floors are falling and are being reduced to rubble during the tilt. The top section that tilts does not remain a constant size or shape, this is why Craig’s explanation is not only wrong, but exposes a faulty understanding of physics.

Uniform Collapse

In his closing paragraphs Craig makes two more claims about the final moments of the south tower.

The first is that it was a “uniform collapse”. Craig doesn’t expand on what he means by that, it is assumed that he means the floors failed uniformly all the way down. That is, the whole of each floor failed together and the building neatly collapsed floor by floor uniformly. If Craig means something else then he is going to have to make that clear.

Watch the following 15 second video http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/south_tower_collapse.mpeg, (it is the first video on the following page of videos http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/videos/index.html). Pay special attention to the final few seconds; watch the edge of the building that is closest to the camera. A part of the outer shell of the building falls away after the top has dropped out of sight. Does that match the description of “uniform collapse”?

This late falling section of building is a clue as to what is going on out of sight in the dust. Rewind to the start of the clip and watch what happens to the tilting top as the collapse starts. The top twists away from the camera as it falls; this twist moves the bulk away from the edge that is seen falling a few seconds later. What this shows is that the top section weight was not evenly pushing down on the floor area below. Its weight was shifted to the side that corresponded to the direction of tilt. With nothing pushing down on the edge of building facing the camera it was momentarily left behind as the rest fell away from it.

Near Free Fall

In his final paragraph, Craig claims that the dead weight of the building pushing down on the floors below would have meant a slowing down of the collapse and makes reference to the impossibility of the “near free fall speed”.

The thing about a collapsing building (whether by controlled demolition or not) is that it goes from stationary to moving (which means you have to have acceleration). In the initial stages, as gravity overcomes all remaining supports, there is only one thing that can happen to the collapse speed, it will increase. From standing to falling requires an increase in speed. Quite how you slow down a stationary object will have to remain a mystery for now.

This near free fall speed is not explained further by Craig; how near to free fall the collapse went is not specified and no reference is made to what was expected. There is no attempt to explain why it would be significant. Does Craig actually understand what he is writing about or is he simply regurgitating oft repeated arguments in the vain hope that more volume is the same as more accurate?

While its not explicitly said, its assumed that Craig mentions this near free fall speed because it is considered as evidence for explosives and that a natural collapse could not have been that fast. The problem is, speed of falling is dictated by gravity and not by the medium that facilitates the collapse. All other things being equal, it doesn’t matter if you remove the supports by explosive or by overloading; the stuff above is going to hit the stuff below at the same speed.

The final speed that the collapse reaches will be dictated by how fast gravity pulls it down less how much resistance the floors below offer. The first floor to collapse had over 30 floors of unsupported building above fall onto it, there was no chance of it holding that weight up and any resistance it could offer up will be pretty much instantly overcome. As each floor is overcome, the weight of unsupported debris will increase; conversely debris falling over the side will reduce the weight pressure on the remaining floors. In order to arrest the collapse, the amount of weight would need to be reduced to a level where the next floor to take the impact is able to offer up enough resistance to make a difference.

Given that the collapse was slower than free fall speed, its obvious that the floors offered some resistance. After all, no resistance would have meant free fall speed. Once momentum has been established the fall will continue until it meets something strong enough to withstand it. In this case it was the ground.

Each floor failed because it was impacted with more weight than it could hold up. To explain the collapse does not require any magic, imaginary physics or even explosives.

Craig’s failure to apply (or understand) the concept of a closed system puts him in good company and his argument is similar to the creationists’ failure to understand closed systems in the context of entropy, as described here: http://www.proof-of-evolution.com/entropy.html. Failure to comprehend the concept of a closed system will result in miss-application of certain laws of physics, which is exactly what Craig has done in his posting.

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8 Comments
  1. Dear Mr. Limey,

    Your original posting to Mr. McKee was during the period you were being rather obtuse. Now that you brought it to his attention, he writes:

    I’m not sure why this comment wasn’t approved at the time it was sent. Given that it addresses the science of the issue and isn’t a personal attack, it seems that it should have been approved at the time. I will be posting a response to this comment when I have the time to go through it again.

    I responded to you there.

    But here it is again for your loyal readers.

    Dear Mr. Limey,

    As probably your one and only subscriber, I see that your grasp of physics as it applies to 9/11 has not improved any from December of 2010 until today September 2011.

    Without equations, your grasp of physics is all hand-wavy, and even pseudo in nature. As such, I’m not going to waste my time within your internal “fluff”. I’ll go right to your conclusions.

    Mr. Limey wrote in his conclusion:

    Given that the collapse was slower than free fall speed, its obvious that the floors offered some resistance. After all, no resistance would have meant free fall speed. Once momentum has been established the fall will continue until it meets something strong enough to withstand it. In this case it was the ground.

    Had the vertical supports and floors offered continual resistance as expected by an intact structure, the demolition would not have been (slightly) slower than free fall. It would have been significantly slower than free fall, if not arrested outright at some point in the upper floors.

    Your entire “momentum” sentence is misleading and ignores significant factors, including ejection of material laterally and pulverization of content, both of which reduce the momentum and left-over energy to affect the lower portion of the towers.

    Momentum is defined as mass times velocity and is conserved during both elastic and inelastic collisions:

    P = M1 * V1 + M2 * V2 = (M1 + M2) * V3 {inelastic}
    P = M1 * V1 + M2 * V2 = M1 * V1′ + M2 * V2′ (elastic; V1V1′, V2V2′}

    The theory of the alleged pile driver rests on inelastic collisions, whereby mass is accumulated with each collision and V2=0.

    For the sake of understanding and discussion, I’ll step readers through the real physics in a simplified fashion that purposely does not take into consideration all factors observable in the collapse or known to be inherent in the structure. The simplified physics will debunk your assertions, which will be even more in error once those more complex mechanisms are brought into the equation.

    Let’s make the following assumptions:
    (a) The upper block had a mass M1.
    (b) Each individual floor had a mass M2.
    (c) The alleged plane impact (or weak) point was 20 floors from the top. Thus, the starting “pile driver” M1=20*M2 (or M2=M1/20).
    (d) Each individual floor was hanging in mid-air without any support below it. (e) Distance between each floor (to make the math easy) 9.8 meters. [Actual distance was probably 1/3 of that.]
    (f) The over-design factor in the static weight that any given level N can support is 2*Mass(110-N) [although I think is was bigger than this.]

    D is distance (between floors)
    g is gravity [9.8 m/(s^2)]
    V0 is initial velocity (V0=0)
    t is time

    D = (1/2) * g * t^2 + V0 * t
    9.8 m = (1/2) * [9.8 m/(s^2)] * t^2

    Solve for t to find out how long it took M1 to free-fall the spacing of one floor into M2.

    t=2^(1/2)=sqrt(2)=1.414 s

    Derivative of acceleration at a point in time is velocity:
    V1 = a * t = 9.8 * 1.414 = 13.8 m/s

    Thus, before hitting M2, M1 reached a velocity V1=13.8 m/s.
    M2 is stationary, so its velocity is V2=0. Thus momentum P before impact is:

    P = M1 * V1 + M2 * V2 = M1 * V1 (because V2=0)

    Conservation of momentum in this very ideal example of an inelastic collision (masses combine rather than bounce) says:

    P = M1 * V1 = (M1 + M2) * V3

    Re-arrange terms and plug in for V1, you get:

    V3 = V1 * [M1/(M1 + M2)] = (13.8) * [M1/(M1 + M2)]

    Because M1 & M2 are greater than zero, the new velocity V3 of the combined mass has to be less than the initial velocity V1 which was equivalent to free-fall. Similar calculations can be performed for subsequent levels, plugging in a newly calculated velocity of the combined & growing mass at impact with that level.

    In this ideal world with floors of mass M2 just hanging in the air, we can further assume that the starting “pile driver” M1=20*M2 (or M2=M1/20) under the premise that one of the alleged airplane impacts was 20 floors from the top.

    V3 = V1 * [M1/(M1 + (M1/20))] = V1 * [1/1.05] = V1 * (0.95)

    In this ideal world example, we see quantitatively how the speed of the pile driver hitting a floor M2 hanging in mid-air slows down slightly from its previous free-fall velocity.

    However, M2 was not just hanging in mid-air. Using the assumed over-design factor of 2, the vertical support offered by the steel shell and the inner core at level M2

    Force(M2) = [Over-Design Factor] * M1 = 2 * M1

    In order for floor M2 to fail, V1*M1 has to also be greater than 2*M1. In this example, it is. However, the momentum equation needs to be updated to account for the consumption of energy in smashing floor M2 and its supporting structures.

    P = M1 * V1 = (M1 + M2) * V3 + [2 * M1]

    V3 = [(M1 * V1) – (2 * M1)]/[M1 + M2] = [V1 – 2] * [M1/(M1 + M2)]
    V3 = [(13.8) – 2] * [M1/(M1 + M2)] = (11.8) * [M1/(M1 + M2)]
    V3 = (11.8) * [M1/(M1 + (M1/20))] = (11.8) * [1/1.05]
    V3 = 11.23 m/s < 13.8 m/s = V1

    Thus we see after impact with the first M2 floor taking into consideration the supports under M2, that velocity of the pile driver M1 should be measurably less than the velocity of free-fall at that point.

    The ejection of content laterally reduces the mass of M1 to M1′. Also the Force of material ejection must be accounted for in the momentum equation P in a manner similar to the over-design factor. More importantly, the force of content pulverization is another massive energy sink that also gets inserted into the momentum equation P in a manner similar to the over-design factor.

    P = M1 * V1 = (M1 + M2) * V3 + Force(M2) + Force(ejection) + Force(pulverization)

    V3 = [(M1*V1) – Force(M2) – Force(ejection) – Force(Pulverization)]/[M1’+M2]

    Revisiting my assumptions, if the assumed static-load over-design factor is low and a higher factor is employed, the resulting V3 will be reduced further. Similarly, using more accurate floor spacing will factor in by reducing the available M1*V1 energy at impact with floor M2.

    Anyway you slice the above, the destruction of the towers should have been measurably and significantly slower than free-fall. It wasn’t.

    Mr. Limey wrote:

    Each floor failed because it was impacted with more weight than it could hold up.

    This is actually mal-framed. This assumes that the “accumulating pile driver” went through the sequence: “(gravity) accelerate down the distance of one floor; slow down upon impacting new floor; (gravity) accelerate down the distance of another floor; …”

    In reality, the outer shell and inner core offered continual support and resistance to collapse (not incremental at each floor). Thus, the mass in the middle and edges didn’t even have the advantage of repeated periods of (gravity) accelerating down the distance of one floor. Only stuff between the core and edges might do that.

    Thus it is pseudo-science to say “each floor failed.” No, the inner core and outer-structure seemingly failed because supposedly:

    M1*V1 > Force(M2) + Force(ejection) + Force(pulverization)

    Yet, how could we even have a sufficient V1 from falling, unless something removed the continual support within the core and edges? In fact, they did such a good job of support removal, collapse speed is slower than but close to free-fall.

    Mr. Limey wrote:

    To explain the collapse does not require any magic, imaginary physics or even explosives.

    The imaginary physics (or pseudo-science) that you speak of must be your own.

    Explaining the collapse does require using real physics and real observation of the event. You state: Given that the collapse was slower than free fall speed. How much slower than free-fall speed was it? Observation proves that it was slightly slower than free-fall, while real physics suggests that it should be significantly and measurably slower.

    It wasn’t. Thus, real physics returns to those equations and the observations. It says in order for collapse speed to remain fast (near free-fall), energy would have to be added to negate the energy sinks represented by:

    [Force(M2) + Force(ejection) + Force(pulverization)]

    How do you add energy to this system, Mr. Limey?

    Not just explosives will do it. DEW will do it, and without too many tell-tail audio decibel signatures of detonation that your heroes of NIST confidently stated weren’t present. How do you power DEW? Maybe a mini-cold-fusion or mini-nuclear reactor were deployed like a portable generator. This would then match measurements of radiation signatures that didn’t match known nuclear weapons but still suggest nuclear type activity.

  2. Richard Hopkins permalink

    My word, what an overcomplicated thread.

    The towers fell due to a structural failure of the steel. Both of you agree on that. One of you thinks it is because of the heat of the fire, the other because of controlled explosions. Either way, the collapse is going to be identical, as the structural failure is identical, even though the cause is different.

    You can’t tilt a building like a domino and expect the columns which are designed for a static vertical load only, not to buckle and fail.

    You can’t heat columns up to such a high temperature and expect the remaining columns to support the unevenly distributed weight.

    You can’t drop 30 stories of skyscraper onto the remaining 60 stories from a great height, and expect it not to crush like a coke can.

    When it comes to conspiracy theories, the main question is motive:
    Marilyn Monroe – might have known something political. (vaguely plausable)
    Diana – The royals didn’t want an asian to be married in. (unlikely, but who knows)
    Moon landings – It’s cheaper and easier to fake it (plausable)

    9-11? Give me a break. If you’ve gone to all that trouble of flying aircraft into buildings, full of aviation fuel, then why go to the hassle of impoding them as well? They would come down anyway, if not as a direct result of the crash, but by controlled demolition weeks later. There is no reason to implode them. Also, I’d love to know what explosives were used which were unaffected by the massive heat created by the fire. An fire-proof, heat proof explosive which can be installed quickly, and rigged in a way that it is invisible to the people who sit and work right next to the columns. Do you know what the inside of a doomed building looks like? Holes, explosives and cables everywhere. Concrete chipped away so that the metal is exposed…

    Get a life, stop insulting the people who died in this tragedy, and do some reading about occum’s razor.

    • limey permalink

      Very good Richard 🙂

      The logical and practical ability of getting explosives rigged to the WTC towers is conveniently ignored by truth deniers such as my esteemed friend above.

      I note that he has not at all tried to logically argue against my assertion that physics proves that the top of the tower in question could not have toppled but would have always fallen through the building and crushed what was below. Instead he dumps a whole load of formula into his reply which read as though they have been copied and pasted from a conspiracy form elsewhere.

      I bet he doesn’t even understand them himself.

    • Dear Mr. Hopkins,

      If the following statement from you was meant to put my position into your words, it misses the mark.

      The towers fell due to a structural failure of the steel. Both of you agree on that. One of you thinks it is because of the heat of the fire, the other because of controlled explosions. Either way, the collapse is going to be identical, as the structural failure is identical, even though the cause is different.

      I do not agree that the “towers fell due to a structural failure of the steel.” This implies that it was shoddy workmanship or design that caused the inevitable demolition. The steel and structural elements were moved out of the way, timed such that the demolition happened at slightly less than free-fall.

      If I am the other to which you refer, I do not believe it was “controlled explosions”, because this implies explosives. Controlled demolition? Yes. The mechanisms of destruction do matter, because they exhibit the depth of the deceit.

      Your statement that “the structural failure is identical” for controlled demolition and heat of fire structural failure is completely inaccurate and wrong. Please review the simple physics that I provided again. You see, if the heat of the localized and small fire some 70-90 stories up was the only initiator and source for the demolition, everything happening below the initiation level must adhere to the basic laws of conservation of energy and motion. As such, it could not have progressed below the initiation level at near free-fall speed while at the same time pulverizing content and ejecting content. It did, however. Thus, energy was added.

      Mr. Hopkins wrote:

      You can’t drop 30 stories of skyscraper onto the remaining 60 stories from a great height, and expect it not to crush like a coke can.

      To paraphrase on the old expression, your response to an order to “jump” should be “how high?”

      I say, my response to the notion of “drop” is “how far should it drop?” To be very generous, let’s say the alleged airplane took out 3 or 4 floors completely. Let’s say the alleged heat of the fires caused the steel to fail uniformly and suddenly to allow for the “dropping” of 30 stories a distance of 4 floors, meaning they fell at free-fall. The outer steel shell and inner-core below the initiation point would have offered continuous resistance to the energy of the falling mass. For the sake of discussion, the energy of the 30 stories falling 4 stories might have exceeded the over-design factor of static resistance at that upper level (floor 80) maybe even down to floor 70 or 60. Between that resistance and the observed pulverization of the content of each floor, it should have slowed the demolition down. It didn’t. Doesn’t mean the physics is wrong. It does mean energy was added that NIST isn’t copping to.

      Or to use the analogy of the Coke can. Stack up 7 Coke cans (with or without Coke). Take 4 additional cans (with or without Coke) and stack them up. You may use tape to make each stack rigid. Take the stack of 4 cans and hold them a height of n=1 Coke cans above the stack of 7. Drop them. Results? Repeat for (n=n+1) Coke can heights between the lower and upper stack before dropping. I believe Jonathon Cole did a similar experiments using blocks of cement blocks and blocks of ice.

      The point, Mr. Hopkins, is that if you drop 30 stories of skyscraper onto the remaining 60 stories from a great height, you can expect it not to crush like a coke can [with a foot on it]. The upper block of n stories might destroy itself into n stories below. Stop there.

      Here are a couple points of fact that Physics Teacher David Chandler discovered regarding those upper 30 stories that you’ve been duped into thinking was a cohesive block. Those upper stories disintegrated into themselves (like an accordian, like a foot on a Coke can) before the lower edge of the demolition progressed, say, 3 floors below the initiation level. The speed that the roof-line fell to the initiation level was 1/3 the speed of gravity. Doing the physics, the implication is that the structure within that 30 story block lost (suddenly and uniformly) 2/3 of its structural strength. That doesn’t happen with fires. That 30 story block was no longer a cohesive block to act like a pile driver on the remaining structure. Ergo, no 70 or 80 stories of crushed Coke cans could be possible… unless excessive amounts of energy is added.

      Mr. Hopkins wrote:

      If you’ve gone to all that trouble of flying aircraft into buildings, full of aviation fuel, then why go to the hassle of impoding them as well?

      Thinking too small, Mr. Hopkins. You’re not seeing the big picture which included the fact that twin towers were under-occupied white elephants with asbestos problems that would have been monumentally expensive (billions) to fix or demolish conventionally, assuming permits would be issued. As it happens, the new owner insured them against terrorist attacks in the Summer of 2001 and then argued in court afterward that they were two terrorists events, so payout should be two-fold. Thus, for like $50 million in investment, he was effectively paid over $3 billion (may be low) to get his white elephants removed… without permits, without damaging the bathtub underneath that held back the Hudson, or without blocking 3 of the 7 subway lines. That is a pretty hefty return on his investment with which to build the new WTC.

      WTC-7 needed to be destroyed because it held SEC records on ongoing investigations that conveniently simply went away, probably as promised by President Bush and his father to their backers. WTC-7 also held offices of the FBI and CIA, so it was probably a damn secure building. NIST confirms that its demolition had the anomalous feature of over 100 feet of visible, measurable, undeniable free-fall. Its demolition sends a message.

      WTC-4 had gold vaults below with billions more than the reported billions. They did recover some of the gold. It wasn’t in the vault, though. It was loaded in the back of a big truck under the complex and was missing its driver, who obviously got word to abandon it.

      Other than the alleged victims from the alleged plane at the Pentagon, the only victims working in the newly remodeled wing that got damaged were the Office of Naval Intelligence who had ongoing investigations into the $2.3 trillion in unaccounted for DoD transactions that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld spoke of on 9/10/2001. The ONI records and investigators were wiped out. That certainly sends a message.

      Why go to all that trouble of allegedly flying aircraft into buildings?

      Shock-and-awe, baby! Shock-and-awe.

      Part of the ruse is to get the public to think “it could have been me on one of those planes! … Sure, next time I fly (take a train, or bus), I’ll surrender my dangerous nail clippers, I’ll take off my shoes, I’ll let a stranger take nude photos of me or feel my junk.” The 300+ pages of the USA PATRIOT Act (yes, it was an acronym) was written, ready, and waiting for 9/11 and passed in a patriotic knee-jerk vote just over a month after 9/11, which also had significant events like an Anthrax attack against to Democratic members of Congress and an influential investigative reporter (Dan Rather). That certainly sends a message.

      Mr Limey wrote:

      The logical and practical ability of getting explosives rigged to the WTC towers is conveniently ignored by truth deniers such as my esteemed friend above.

      Mr. Limey completely misrepresents my position with the phrase getting explosives rigged. I would have to agree that if this was the sole destructive mechanism, it presents a logistics nightmare, because they’d have to plant overkill amounts (above and beyond what was needed for demolition) in order to account for the energy requirements of pulverization. How many man-trips is that?

      No. My position is that they planted 2 or 3 directed energy weapons (DEW) within the towers. (How many man-trips is that?) The energy source for these weapons? Lots of possibilities, but my bets are on either a mini-nuclear reactor or cold-fusion reactor to which they plugged in DEW, because these energy sources would leave radiation signatures (which were indeed measured) that would deviate from what one would expect from known milli-nuclear devices. The DEW devices were aimed within the towers up and down. They blasted waves of energy into the content which turned, say, trapped water molecules instantly into steam whose rapidly expanding volume pressure would blow apart the content that contained the water molecule. Small fragments of human remains were found on the rooftops of neighboring buildings.

      You seem to ignore “the logical and practical ability of getting” a few DEW devices and their energy sources into the towers, as opposed to explosives. Not so logistically tough, except maybe running massive electrical transmission cables down the elevator shafts to the energy source.

      Mr Limey wrote:

      I note that he has not at all tried to logically argue against my assertion that physics proves that the top of the tower in question could not have toppled but would have always fallen through the building and crushed what was below.

      My apologies, Mr. Limey, for not addressing your concern of the toppling upper block. Your understanding of physics for this event remains as flawed as your comments about demolition speed. The angular momentum of the upper block should have been conserved. Therefore, the laws of physics suggest that (unless some outside force acted on it) the upper block would have continued with its angular motion and toppled eventually off the side of the lower structure and creamed neighboring buildings (and cracked the bathtub.) Nothing in physics suggests that it would have or should have “fallen through the building and crushed what was below.” You’re just being obtuse. Haven’t we been down this garden path before?

      In my response to Mr. Hopkins, I spoke of the observed and measured facts that the upper block disintegrated into itself before progressing that many levels below the alledged impact floor. It lost 2/3 of its structural integrity suddenly. I maintain that DEW beamed upwards “added” the energy. Angular momentum of the upper block actually continued, however the momentum was transferred from “a cohesive block” to separated and individual dust particles that DEW turned the block into. There was no cohesive top of the tower to fall through the building and crush what was below. DEW devices on a few levels were there to help and keep the pulverization going.

      Instead he dumps a whole load of formula into his reply which read as though they have been copied and pasted from a conspiracy form elsewhere. I bet he doesn’t even understand them himself.

      Awe, shucks, Mr. Limey. Are you having difficulty copying sentences or phrases from my physics analysis into Google and finding a definitive web source for any of it that would prove I might have plagiarized it? Please, do keep trying. I love it when you do futile busy work. And when you come up short, that’s when you’ll lose the bet about my understanding it myself.

      [Hint: it was written from scratch, albeit earlier this year I did freshen my understanding of basic physics from Dr. Judy Wood’s excellent book, “Where Did the Towers Go?” You could go try there, but you still won’t find plagiarism. One would hope you’d find there (a) agreement with my analysis and (b) a vast improvement to your understanding of high school physics.]

  3. limey permalink

    I do not agree that the “towers fell due to a structural failure of the steel.”This implies that it was shoddy workmanship or design that caused the inevitable demolition. The steel and structural elements were moved out of the way, timed such that the demolition happened at slightly less than free-fall.

    How nice of Mr Once to misrepresent Richard’s comment. Shoddy workmanship is not at all the implication. The failure that Richard refers to is solely due to external factors; in this case, as a result of impact and continued heat.

    You see, if the heat of the localized and small fire some 70-90 stories up was the only initiator and source for the demolition …

    Here, there is misrepresentation of facts. The fires in the twin towers were neither localized nor small. They spanned several floors for starters were large enough to block all exits, effectively trapping all people who were above them. One only needs to look at the volumes of smoke coming from the towers to see that the fires were not at all small. Emergency services received calls from those trapped, reporting that some support trusses had collapsed.

    Thus, energy was added.

    Mr Once displays the same ignorance of physics that Mr McKee showed in his original post. The added energy is 30 or so floors of building no longer being supported, dropping onto the structure below.

    To be very generous, let’s say the alleged airplane took out 3 or 4 floors completely. Let’s say the alleged heat of the fires caused the steel to fail uniformly and suddenly to allow for the “dropping” of 30 stories a distance of 4 floors, meaning they fell at free-fall. … For the sake of discussion, the energy of the 30 stories falling 4 stories might have exceeded the over-design factor of static resistance at that upper level (floor 80) maybe even down to floor 70 or 60. Between that resistance and the observed pulverization of the content of each floor, it should have slowed the demolition down. It didn’t.

    30 floors falling onto floor 80 and causing it fail become 31 floors falling onto floor 79 causing it to fail, and so it goes. The floors were not capable of supporting the weight that was being dropped onto them. Any resistance offered to the mass above would have been utterly futile. Even with the massive amounts of debris that was falling over the sides, the mass of weight on each floor was simply too much.

    Mr Once would do well to educate himself and watch this helpful video which explains the physics of why the collapse happened as it did and why his claim above is wrong: http://crazyflippinpancakes.com/?p=825

    My position is that they planted 2 or 3 directed energy weapons (DEW) within the towers.

    Ah yes, the mythical DEW. Its not clear if the implementation of these would have been on a single floor to create a failed floor and a pancake collapse, or spread throughout the building to guarantee collapse. I imagine Mr Once holds to the latter. The obvious question would then be, how come the collapse initiation was at the point at which the planes impacted?

    Hell, even the conspiracy brigade think the DEW idea is wacko! http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200702/Implausibility-Directed-Energy-Beam-Demolish-WTC-by-Gregory-Jenkins.pdf

    • Dear Mr. Limey,

      I give you my profound apologies in advance if this posting ends up insulting you, your education, and your intelligence. This is the second version of my response to you. It wasn’t that my first version called you any names. It was going point-by-point through your response to me and proving them wrong, which makes its own implications on you mental capacity and/or paid agenda.

      The change of direction into this second version happened when I came across this passage and researched it.

      Mr Once would do well to educate himself and watch this helpful video

      It was indeed helpful, LOL! It showed that you failed to educate yourself on the matter and don’t understand it.

      Nothing in that video supports the OCT. In fact, the bloke makes all sorts of assumptions favorable to the OCT, like that the lower structure was designed at the minimum limit to support just the static weight above it, like not considering the destructive forces on the 30 floor block itself, like that the separating floor would instantaneously evaporate to allow the upper block to have at least one floor’s distance of free-fall acceleration without resistance, etc.

      Within part 2 of the video, he proves (like I did) according to physics that the upper block should decelerate upon hitting the lower structure. (Observation shows that the upper block continued accelerating.) Even using his very lenient and favorable assumptions, he proves at the end of part 3 that the upper block should have taken 44 seconds to crush all of the lower structure. (Observation shows that the towers were demolished in 10-15 seconds depending on how you measure it and agreed by NIST.)

      A point of fact is that the inner core was over-designed to support five times the static weight of what was above it, while the outer-shell was over-designed to support three times the static weight. Factor these in, and even some of this blokes assumptions wouldn’t hold.

      No need to belabor your stupidity and disingenuous nature in foisting this video on your reading audience to support the OCT of a gravitational acceleration.

      Here are various things mined from my original posting in response to various comments of yours.

      The failure that Richard refers to is solely due to external factors; in this case, as a result of impact and continued heat.

      Don’t confuse the two towers. WTC-2 had firemen who reported on the extent of the fires, and their testimony completely discounts your statements. NIST says the jet fuel burned off within the first 10 minutes. What, pray tell, is then the combustion source for the continued heat? Oh, that’s right. Office furnishings. Look up how hot those fires can get.

      One only needs to look at the volumes of smoke coming from the towers to see that the fires were not at all small.

      Yes, look at the smoke. Black and sooty, meaning Oxygen starved and not nearly as hot as your fantasies imagine.

      The added energy is 30 or so floors of building no longer being supported, dropping onto the structure below.

      In case you missed it in the videos, it wasn’t just “floors… no longer being supported” but more tellingly “floors suddenly and uniformly no longer being supported.” That doesn’t happen in a natural fire, certainly not one on a steel structure with weak, Oxygen starved fires.

      Also, it wasn’t 30 or so floors of building dropping like a cohesive block. Before that “fabled” pile-driving block had fallen through, say, less than 10 floors of the lower structure, those 30 or so floors were already pulverized into themselves like an accordion. They were destroyed from within and in no ways functioned as a cohesive block of pile-drivign mass.

      The obvious question would then be, how come the collapse initiation was at the point at which the planes impacted?

      You mean “alleged plane impacts.” Even assuming planes, they were radio controlled and easy to target so as to avoid devices planted in the building of whatever form (DEW or otherwise).

      I reserve the right to be wrong about DEW. But even my fall-back position (see link to video) of nano-thermite being the primary destructive mechanism is more scientifically sound than your spinning and gyrating.

      9/11: Explosive Evidence – Engineer Experts Speak Out (Full-length) AE911Truth

      • limey permalink

        The change of direction into this second version happened when I came across this passage and researched it.

        Mr Once would do well to educate himself and watch this helpful video…

        It was indeed helpful, LOL! It showed that you failed to educate yourself on the matter and don’t understand it.

        Sadly for myself I didn’t actually watch the video series in full at the time and made the silly assumption that because the author apparently used a physics book everything would be correct. Ho hum.

        I am sure there is a lesson in there about checking things over first and I am sure it won’t be the last time I fail to do so. I also note that the link I posted seems to be dead now.

        When I did eventually get round to watching the video I realised my mistake. The number of assumptions that were made was very concerning for starters.

  4. Where to add my comment?

    I am not a conspiracy theorist.

    I am a professional.

    False flag operations are on a small scale and are easily controlled. So, the margin of error was too great for this to be a false flag operation. You should already know that the best ones were carried out at sea.

    Without re-building the towers and then testing your hypothesis of conspiracy, there is no way for you to support your claims. Without empirical data, there is no way to take your idea to a theoretical level.

    Unless you might get a confession? mmm … now you have me thinking …. a confession …

    There is NO example to compare this ‘demolition’ to.

    On the false flag operation level. The Bush Administration did not have the time to plan a false flag of this scale. Had it been a false flag operation, the orders had to have been given during the defeated and lame duck Clinton Administration.

    The scale that you claim this operation to have been is enormous. A handful of terrorists getting lucky is a lot easier to believe.

    A handful of terrorists trained under Clinton’s Administration to take down the Bush Administration and bring in his wife as a manchurian candidate …. if you claimed that, there would have been time, there would have been resources, there would have been the POSSIBILITY of a motive.

    Daring.

    Crazy.

    Stupid.

    Evil.

    But, all those terms apply to whoever was responsible.

    Here is what I do know. A false flag of that size could not have been kept secret. Unless, Osama had been hired to do it on behalf of someone else …. and that political alliance would have wanted to keep anyone else from interrogating him and would have issued a shoot to kill order ….

    The Democratic Party only has some of the assets necessary.

    I do not believe they have all the assets necessary.

    Wait a minute …. if your idea is plausible, then the guilty party would want their hit man silenced ….

    In most cases, the same team, or their partners are used to silence the individual(s). . . .

    What if you are on to something?

    Are you ready to take on Seal Team 6? You might want to make sure your doors and windows are 3 bomb proof doors thick. The latest munitions will slice through just about any concrete structure ….

    But, wow! In the 60’s, the Democratic Party made a pact with big Pharma to get health care through no matter the cost …. Everyone ignored them with the war and everything. It was just too Orwellian for anyone to believe that there could be a world government or globalized health care for the poor at tax payer expense …..

    And then they took out the Republicans with that Watergate thing ….

    You know …. if they took over Hoover’s machine during Johnson’s war, that might make sense …. and that would explain Obama’s Vietnam …. and that would explain why he promised to bring the troops home to get in office and LEFT THEM THERE ….. for 3 years …. only to bring them back to keep control of his office …..

    Well, if you are right, and he doesn’t keep Hillary happy, he might not …. wow ….

    Well, if you are right, I hope you sleep better tonight …..

    copyright me!!!!! That is one awesome novel! even if it is true. I mean false ….. that would explain why she “Mrs Kelly Marshall” took the position of Secretary of State …..

    Dude! That is a BESTSELLER!!!!

    Wait! Hold the presses! Did she sleep with Osama? Is that what the porn was?

    I like you guys!!!!

    You just wrote my novel ….. OK, you gave me the greatest plot twist ever told. I wrote the novel.

    🙂

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